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	<title>Comments on: On Ogling and Appreciation</title>
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	<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/</link>
	<description>Being the thoughts, musings, aggravations and sarcastic whinings of the local god</description>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/comment-page-1/#comment-5347</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/#comment-5347</guid>
		<description>Thanks for cleaning &#039;er up there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="troll_cmtno">Thanks for cleaning 'er up there.</div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: christina B</title>
		<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/comment-page-1/#comment-5345</link>
		<dc:creator>christina B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 18:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/#comment-5345</guid>
		<description>I read and wanted to respond on Feminist Allies.  However, I am at work and my computer won&#039;t let me access that page.  

With respect to &quot;doesn&#039;t linger,&quot; this holds true if she returns the glance but looks away quickly and doesn&#039;t respond.  I do this often to let people know that I do feel them looking at me and I am NOT interested.  If I were interested, I would start talking to the person myself.  

I disagree that there is no way to verbalize that you are attracted to someone politely.  I think this comes under the &quot;has no expectations&quot; category.  I have been complimented by strangers on the street, in a very direct manner (eres muy guapa, you are very attractive).  The person who complimented me immediately returned to the conversation with his friend and kept walking.  It was a compliment, not a proposition and I took it that way.  

Hollering things from a car, whistling, etc are not about expressing an attraction to the woman.  They are about treating women like sex objects in front of friends to prove masculinity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="troll_cmtno">I read and wanted to respond on Feminist Allies.  However, I am at work and my computer won't let me access that page.  

With respect to "doesn't linger," this holds true if she returns the glance but looks away quickly and doesn't respond.  I do this often to let people know that I do feel them looking at me and I am NOT interested.  If I were interested, I would start talking to the person myself.  

I disagree that there is no way to verbalize that you are attracted to someone politely.  I think this comes under the "has no expectations" category.  I have been complimented by strangers on the street, in a very direct manner (eres muy guapa, you are very attractive).  The person who complimented me immediately returned to the conversation with his friend and kept walking.  It was a compliment, not a proposition and I took it that way.  

Hollering things from a car, whistling, etc are not about expressing an attraction to the woman.  They are about treating women like sex objects in front of friends to prove masculinity.</div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/comment-page-1/#comment-5344</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/#comment-5344</guid>
		<description>Dave can correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but I think the eye contact that he&#039;s talking about is not of they &quot;hey, you&#039;re sexy, notice I&#039;m looking at you!&quot; variety, but rather of the normal &quot;pass someone on the street, make brief eye contact, smile, look away&quot; variety, which I think is totally appropriate.  The important thing is that that is something he would be just as likely to do with another man, or a woman he didn&#039;t find attractive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="troll_cmtno">Dave can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the eye contact that he's talking about is not of they "hey, you're sexy, notice I'm looking at you!" variety, but rather of the normal "pass someone on the street, make brief eye contact, smile, look away" variety, which I think is totally appropriate.  The important thing is that that is something he would be just as likely to do with another man, or a woman he didn't find attractive.</div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: god</title>
		<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/comment-page-1/#comment-5343</link>
		<dc:creator>god</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/#comment-5343</guid>
		<description>This morning I read a related article in The Onion: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theonion.com/content/news/construction_worker_still_hasnt&quot;  rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Construction Worker Still Hasn&#039;t Given Up On True Love&lt;/a&gt;. Heart-warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="troll_cmtno">This morning I read a related article in The Onion: <a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/news/construction_worker_still_hasnt"  rel="nofollow">Construction Worker Still Hasn't Given Up On True Love</a>. Heart-warming.</div>]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: god</title>
		<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/comment-page-1/#comment-5342</link>
		<dc:creator>god</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 12:33:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/#comment-5342</guid>
		<description>re HTML, I linkified a couple of your links, but it looks like there&#039;s one missing.

Thanks for the insightful response. I hadn&#039;t even gotten much into the case where looking is a signal that &quot;I&#039;m single, you&#039;re single, let&#039;s hook up.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;edit:&lt;/b&gt; I added the other link. I don&#039;t know why stuff is not automatically HTMLified. hrm.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="troll_cmtno">re HTML, I linkified a couple of your links, but it looks like there's one missing.

Thanks for the insightful response. I hadn't even gotten much into the case where looking is a signal that "I'm single, you're single, let's hook up."

<b>edit:</b> I added the other link. I don't know why stuff is not automatically HTMLified. hrm.</div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/comment-page-1/#comment-5339</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/#comment-5339</guid>
		<description>Where are my html tags? Sheesh!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="troll_cmtno">Where are my html tags? Sheesh!</div>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Amy</title>
		<link>http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/comment-page-1/#comment-5338</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 06:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://memethief.com/2007/06/29/on-ogling-and-appreciation/#comment-5338</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;In visual culture studies we learn that the practice of looking involves an interplay between gaze and object. &quot;Object&quot; is a passive term, and we use it to denote a negative position in the viewer-viewee relationship. Traditionally in visual culture, the objects of dominant gazes are women and visible minorities. Those images that are historically subversive are those that work contrary to the male dominant gaze - VISC 101: 
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
Manet: 
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
Olympia returns the male gaze to the horror of the french salons. Here a prostitute takes the institutional female pose and looks directly at the viewer as he ogles her body. 
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edouard_Manet._A_Bar_at_the_Folies-Berg%C3%A8re.JPG&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;A bar at the Folies-Bergere&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
The man in the top-hat (upper right) propositions the waitress for sex and she defiantly refuses by returning his gaze (the viewer is the man reflected in the mirror). 
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
A contemporary example, Jeff Wall: &lt;a href=&quot;http://courses.washington.edu/hypertxt/cgi-bin/12.228.185.206/html/viewer/jeffbar2_400.jpg&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://courses.washington.edu/hypertxt/cgi-bin/12.228.185.206/html/viewer/jeffbar2_400.jpg&lt;/a&gt;
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
The reason I bring this up is because out practices of looking are not independent of those we have been institutionalized into. There is a pre-existing culture of how we observe the marked versus the unmarked. David is right to make the distinction between female and gay male objectification. The objectification of men by other men is a reversal of the male gaze which denies the centuries old European tradition and in turn makes people tied to it very uncomfortable. (Thus the: &quot;I don&#039;t care if he&#039;s gay as long as he doesn&#039;t his on me&quot; syndrome.)
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
Innocent or not the act of looking at others is still part of that European tradition of domination and subjectivity. Women, consciously or not, are very much aware of when they are being subjugated by the male gaze. Some believe that by actively participating in this subjugation they can become empowered (see hotmail-douchebag&#039;s oh-so-sensitive email or &quot;Female Chauvinist Pigs&quot; by Ariel Levy). Others (myself included) believe that this could be the case if men were equally treated on our public streets (which they ain&#039;t). 
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
The Line: Single people use body language (including looking) to alert other single people that they are willing and available. I don&#039;t say this lightly. I find that generally we employ this body language only to those we find to be suitable matches to ourselves - as deluded as they may be at times. As good-looking as some club-going greasy-haired loser eating a street dog on my corner may be I probably won&#039;t strut my stuff in front of him whereas I might with a bearded indie-rocker on Queen west. Par example. 
&lt;/p&gt;&lt;p&gt;
That being said - if you&#039;re not on the market it&#039;s not okay to make eye contact with girls you find attractive on the street. Think of it this way - if she were to catch you eye and come up to  you and say &quot;Let&#039;s go for it&quot; you would feel very sheepish responding with &quot;actually, I&#039;m in a relationship&quot;. 
&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div class="troll_cmtno"><p>In visual culture studies we learn that the practice of looking involves an interplay between gaze and object. "Object" is a passive term, and we use it to denote a negative position in the viewer-viewee relationship. Traditionally in visual culture, the objects of dominant gazes are women and visible minorities. Those images that are historically subversive are those that work contrary to the male dominant gaze - VISC 101: 
</p><p>
Manet: 
</p><p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Manet%2C_Edouard_-_Olympia%2C_1863.jpg</a>
</p><p>
Olympia returns the male gaze to the horror of the french salons. Here a prostitute takes the institutional female pose and looks directly at the viewer as he ogles her body. 
</p><p>
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Edouard_Manet._A_Bar_at_the_Folies-Berg%C3%A8re.JPG" rel="nofollow">A bar at the Folies-Bergere</a>
</p><p>
The man in the top-hat (upper right) propositions the waitress for sex and she defiantly refuses by returning his gaze (the viewer is the man reflected in the mirror). 
</p><p>
A contemporary example, Jeff Wall: <a href="http://courses.washington.edu/hypertxt/cgi-bin/12.228.185.206/html/viewer/jeffbar2_400.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://courses.washington.edu/hypertxt/cgi-bin/12.228.185.206/html/viewer/jeffbar2_400.jpg</a>
</p><p>
The reason I bring this up is because out practices of looking are not independent of those we have been institutionalized into. There is a pre-existing culture of how we observe the marked versus the unmarked. David is right to make the distinction between female and gay male objectification. The objectification of men by other men is a reversal of the male gaze which denies the centuries old European tradition and in turn makes people tied to it very uncomfortable. (Thus the: "I don't care if he's gay as long as he doesn't his on me" syndrome.)
</p><p>
Innocent or not the act of looking at others is still part of that European tradition of domination and subjectivity. Women, consciously or not, are very much aware of when they are being subjugated by the male gaze. Some believe that by actively participating in this subjugation they can become empowered (see hotmail-douchebag's oh-so-sensitive email or "Female Chauvinist Pigs" by Ariel Levy). Others (myself included) believe that this could be the case if men were equally treated on our public streets (which they ain't). 
</p><p>
The Line: Single people use body language (including looking) to alert other single people that they are willing and available. I don't say this lightly. I find that generally we employ this body language only to those we find to be suitable matches to ourselves - as deluded as they may be at times. As good-looking as some club-going greasy-haired loser eating a street dog on my corner may be I probably won't strut my stuff in front of him whereas I might with a bearded indie-rocker on Queen west. Par example. 
</p><p>
That being said - if you're not on the market it's not okay to make eye contact with girls you find attractive on the street. Think of it this way - if she were to catch you eye and come up to  you and say "Let's go for it" you would feel very sheepish responding with "actually, I'm in a relationship". 
</p></div>]]></content:encoded>
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